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Post by spirithorse on Dec 28, 2012 2:04:01 GMT -5
From my perspective as a 'horseman' with roots on a cattle ranch and dressage as a passion, I would like to clarify what dressage really is.
Dressage is simply teaching the horse human aids in order to ask the horse to do movements it 'already' knows how to do without us humans on its back.
There should be no difference between western dressage and traditional dressage regarding the gaits and prescribed movements as described in the rules.
However, it behoves western dressage riders to include full side passes at trot and canter......trot and canter pirouettes into 360 degree spins.....show what a working cow horse can really do that a traditional dressage horse cannot.
Currently there is a chasm of disrespect and dissent being thrown about by folks in both camps. Egos are getting in the way of doing what is best for the health and welfare of our horses. I say we need not to act like deaf, blind and voiceless statutes, but rather we need to desire to hear and see new knowledge so that we may discuss it with an open mind.
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Post by Admin on Dec 30, 2012 9:46:57 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the power of the internet has brought WD where it is today. I feel if it hadn’t existed, it wouldn’t be where it is today, and it would grow at a much slower pace. Egos do play a huge role in WD for that is where the MONEY is at the moment in horses. Anything new and upcoming is always looked at as a get rich quick scheme. There are also egos in the TD world as well. I think with the power of the internet, things will change for the treatment of the horse. There are too many people out there watching, taking pictures, and recording everyone’s movements. It will take time for everyone to settle into WD. You have a couple of organizations out there either stuffing it in everyone’s face, or claiming full rights to the discipline or saying nothing at all. Tests and rules abound. I am a bit confused as how the working cow horse should be able to, or even willing to do spins, and see no reason for them in the WD arena. Terminology is another, a trot is a trot, but with WD it seems they have to use Jog to make it more western friendly. Same with the lope. I saw a video of the difference sometime past this year, I shall see if I can find it again and post it.
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Post by luckyrider on Dec 30, 2012 10:29:52 GMT -5
Edward: I think this is the link you were thinking about: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ol2ijT6NtA0Yes, the problem is that there are too many people who think that fancy tricks are Western Dressage, without the knowledge of good dressage principles to apply it to the Western pen. Unfortunately there are many people who are hanging their shingle up as a Western Dressage Trainer who have NO clue regarding what is the ideal of correct dressage principles. That includes to advocation of curbs on martingales, head to tail tie down devices (claimed to promote suppleness and self-carriage), training forks, and totally wrong ideals as to self carriage and contact. Never mind the correct gaits! Until the wheat is separated from the chaff, we are going to bump into the rhetorical arguments again and again. Hopefully this board will give us a clean slate, so that we can educate instead of trying to do damage control and defend ourselves. (The ones that are doing it right). |
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Post by morgan2 on Dec 31, 2012 13:12:58 GMT -5
Sometimes it takes egos, as well as tricks and such, to capture the interest of people that may not otherwise pay attention to something "new". Our world is such at this moment in time. Is it good? Who's to say...it is what it is.
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Post by luckyrider on Jan 1, 2013 1:14:34 GMT -5
Correct Education is imperative. But, when people are advocating poor training techniques and less than sympathetic training equipment, that's when the question of credibility is raised. There are many examples of this out on the world wide web. What should be the key to correct principles using proper dressage techniques (after all, it IS Western Dressage) is masked by the sales pitch of snake oil salesmen.
I am also wondering WHY there are SO many Western Dressage Associations? It seems like last year there was ONE- the WDAA, and then all of a sudden they are popping up like crazy! I don't think this is doing any good for a fledgling discipline. It seems to me like that THIS is the battle of the Egos.
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Post by spirithorse on Jan 1, 2013 15:55:42 GMT -5
Luckyrider.....thanks for the link. It is great.
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Post by IPHDA on Jan 7, 2013 10:15:51 GMT -5
The answer to your question is simple, some people do not know some people do not care and even more think they know and do not  When someone says there is only one way to do something I tend to think they are narrow minded especially when it comes to horses, they come in so many different varieties both physically and mentally that trying to develop them all the same seems silly. My personal opinions on what is right and wrong do not matter except to say that you can not force a horse to learn and neither can you pet them into exercising and that is what developing a horse is making them exercise in a manner they are not use to. Equipment is not abusive it is how it is used, personally I have no use for devices and but I wont condemn all those that do only how they use them. Most devices are designed to train to a rule book and to often the short cuts to the rule book requirements leave the training or development of the horses full potential lacking, but that is just my opinion. As for the natural part I will leave that alone, except to say, it is about balance and a horses natural balance is different than what must be developed to be the most efficient at carrying a rider. If you watch a rider that says they are only developing the horses natural ability even they are always working to change the horses natural balance, they just do not know it The reason there are so many WD associations is that they do not agree on what they are wanting to do, is it dressage in a western saddle, or western development / training, Performance Horse Development, PHD was around for 5 years before the WDAA and is called PHD not western dressage because the balance that needs to be developed for most performance horses so they can be proficient at any event that requires smooth lateral movement and ground covering speed is totally different than what dressage promotes, then you add the USEF dressage judges in the mix and it gets totally off track for what many think WD is. As I have heard the proof is in the pudding and until WD riders go on to show improvement in western events it will be dressage in a western saddle. I do know that riders encouraged to develop their horses with the PHD progression and evaluated by PHD judges have gone on to be much more successful at many western events. I asked this when WDAA first started someone p[lease show me a a horse that can mark over 70% with a dressage judge doing a level 4 test and also run in the 1d at a big barrel race and mark over a 72 in a NRHA class, I have yet to see it from anyone, Bottom line it is about balance and the balance the dressage judging criteria insists on is not the most effective for developing forward ground covering to laterally smooth changes of direction. Just my opinion and I am sure if you are interested in my opinion you can find lots of information by searching IPHDA there is even one horse on you tube who does attempt a level 4 dressage test as their first dressage test and this horse is a 1D barrel horse and has marked 72 against a NRHA judge. But could not mark a 70% against a Dressage judge unless we redeveloped her balance from forward and supportive to elevated and that in turn ruins her ability to work in the western events as proficiently. Rod Correct Education is imperative. But, when people are advocating poor training techniques and less than sympathetic training equipment, that's when the question of credibility is raised. There are many examples of this out on the world wide web. What should be the key to correct principles using proper dressage techniques (after all, it IS Western Dressage) is masked by the sales pitch of snake oil salesmen. I am also wondering WHY there are SO many Western Dressage Associations? It seems like last year there was ONE- the WDAA, and then all of a sudden they are popping up like crazy! I don't think this is doing any good for a fledgling discipline. It seems to me like that THIS is the battle of the Egos. |
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Post by canwesterndressage on Jan 8, 2013 17:04:02 GMT -5
Rod: Define dressage? It's training. Personally I have had horses excel in other Western Disciplines. Recently a QH gelding that took Reserve Champion in the Ontario Barrel Racing Finals. I find no difference in the "training" I use the tools in my tool box and do not keep using the same set of wrenches. As trainers you have to realize that it's the right tool for the right job (what methods/attention needs to be on the horse or rider). Dressage is not about a cookie cutter method. It's about knowing how to improve a horse and rider regardless of discipline. The artificial appliances are not part of the training process. And what Level 4 test? Was it the horse you posted the video on the WDAA corral a couple of years ago asking about dressage? There are VERY few horses that achieve 70's in 4th Level dressage. The scoring is very different from NRHA. www.ridingmagazine.com/riding_onlinemag/articles/2013_01/charleswilhelm.htm\Interesting article. |
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Post by IPHDA on Jan 8, 2013 20:00:11 GMT -5
Personally I have had horses excel in other Western Disciplines. Recently a QH gelding that took Reserve Champion in the Ontario Barrel Racing Finals. Congratulation Elaine, that is a great accomplishment, |
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When someone says there is only one way to do something I tend to think they are narrow minded especially when it comes to horses, they come in so many different varieties both physically and mentally that trying to develop them all the same seems silly.